C902 Shoot-out In Berlin Options

[Mizzle]

So, I think we promised you some photo samples from the C902. It is without doubt the best camera phone by Sony Ericsson yet, and the beta software is quite good in terms of sharpness, although we'd like a bit more saturated photos as well as less photo noise. Apart from that, these are very good photos by a pre-production unit. Press the thumbnails for full-size versions.

From the Unofficial Sony Ericsson Blog:
http://blog.se-nse.net/2008/05/14/c902-shoot-out-in-berlin/.

[number1]

thanks for the sample pics, at least i know now what the c902 camera is capable of.

C902. It is without doubt the best camera phone by Sony Ericsson yet

No it's not it terms of quality the pics are awful, exposure and colours arent' bad, for a 5megapixel cam the pics have about 1megapixel of detail the because the detail is smeared out by post-processing, the c902 is almost as bad as the nokia 5megapixels cams. i compaided the pics too my k800, my k800 is the clear winner it terms of eveything.

k800i:
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special
http://www.esato.com/phonephotos/viewphoto...l=k800i+special

shows that cam quality has gone backwards rather than forwards with the cybershot range.

[Mattwood]

Your pictures have been resized (not cropped down) this will make the image look sharper anyway (preview pictures)..... the sample pictures here are still at a large size and need to be resized - again this will also improve the quality

open yours up to the full size and they are noisy - pretty much to the same standard

Also i expect these pictures are taken in the default settings on the camera and have not had the settings changed to help improve the picture quality?

This post has been edited by Mattwood: 2008-05-14 15:17

[number1]

just click the pic if you want fullsize, my k800i pics are sharper and have more detail and better colour, sure there a bit noisey but no more noisey than c902 pics it is only a phone camera i don't expect 100% perfect pics.
i use all auto settings and -0.3 Ev most the time for outdoor pics.

[Mattwood]

I did open them full size

open yours up to the full size and they are noisy - pretty much to the same standard

I wouldn't say yours are that much sharper at all... especially the out door ones!

my comment about using the default settings was for the C902, but as you say it's a camera phone and are never going to be perfect. I wouldn't slam it saying your K800i is better from the few pictures posted by Mizzle compared to the ones you have uploaded there isn't much difference

This post has been edited by Mattwood: 2008-05-14 15:33

[number1]

to me my k800i one's look alot better being 3.2megapixels and having a 5.2mm focal length the pics don't have much noise so don't require so much post-processing so not too much detail is lost, the c902 has the same sized sensor as my k800 but an extra 2 megapixels and a smaller focal lengh pics will be more noisey so they are more heavily post processsed resulting in loss of detail. really the max amount a mobile phone should have is 2.7megapixels with it's 1/2,5″”sensor. 5megapixels phones are just a con you only get the resolution not the detail.

[Mizzle]

These are non-editing photos in auto mode. It was a sunny day there (and an entirely different set of scenarios than your samples from a photographer's point of view), and this is of course prototype software. The camera software is definitely better than the K850's. Regarding your photos, number1, I wouldn't doubt for a second that this is not the original camera driver.

Also, your statement that a 0.02 mm smaller focal length does anything is nonsense. It's such a small difference, it won't be visible at all. If you really want to go to details, this smaller focal length simply means you'll get more content on your picture (the smaller the focal length, the wider the photo will get). But once again, we're talking a millimetre wider photo. Also, the smaller the focal length, the more light you'll get into your photo, hence less photo noise.

Also, hardware does get better and so does technology. If the technology wasn't there, then no one would put a 5, 7 or even 10 mega pixel sensor in any consumer camera or camera phone for that matter. You can't compare a two years old 3 mega pixel sensor with a new 5 mega pixel sensor.

[number1]

you are correct there all taken with different versions on my camera drivers also i use k810 firmware because it has better image processing, the k800i was limited by it's old driver it can do so much better, i'm really happy with the results i get from it now. i guess 0.2mm won't make much difference

Also, the smaller the focal length, the more light you'll get into your photo, hence less photo noise.

i'm pretty sure that the other way round the bigger the focal lengh the more light it captures.
the Cmos sensors have improved alot yes they have more advantages over cdd's now, nothing has been done to make tiny 1/2,5″”sensor's coupe with 5megapixels when there limit is 2.7mp, it costs nothing to divide the tiny sensors up to more megapixels then add over powerful post processing to remove all the noise (pixel errors).

You can't compare a two years old 3 mega pixel sensor with a new 5 mega pixel sensor.

yes i can and the 2 year old 3 megapixel sensor clearly wins,the phone manufactures do not use proper 5 megapixels sensors they use 1/2,5″” sensors and overload them and wonder why the photos suck. A proper 5 megapixel sensor would be around 2/0″ and be to big for phone.

This post has been edited by number1: 2008-05-14 18:22

[Mizzle]

Nope, you're wrong about the focal length. The larger focal length, the harder it'll be for the light to reach the sensor, hence more photo noise. This is also why you'll need a slower shutter speed when optically zooming in on a real camera.

I'll refrain from commenting on the sensor sizes, as I know that's wrong, and don't want to end up in an argument

[balutza_07]

We have a "fight"

[MikLSP]

@ number 1

View the C902 pictures at a small size i.e. to fully fit on the screen and they look quite good. I admit there is noise and loss of quality when inspected at full pixel size but the same applies to your K800i shots.
I'd say they have a quite comparable quality actually though the K800i shots at full pixel size are still smaller than the 5MP ones, as we know the larger you display it the worse it looks so I would suggest that viewed at the same size the C902 images may be better.

Also these are prototype images AND your phone is modified and that's not to mention the different lighting etc.
For a fair comparison both phones should be used to take the same images.

I do admit that the C902 shots have poorer colours though I think you're looking through tinted spectacles and seeing what you want to see, everyone else seems to think the images are quite comparable;)

EDIT: I have cropped one of the photos from each phone so they can be compared at the same size. To do this I have cropped a 640 x 480 section of each and saved them as a max quality jpeg. I think both images show comparable quality and noise levels though the C902 shot is taken in worse light conditions so if anything should be expected to be poorer with more noise.

C902:


K800i:

[number1]

they actually look about the same, the k800i is a little sharper thanks to the modded driver, still it is not worth me paying out for a new phone that isn't even really any better than my old one that would not be the smart thing to do. plus the c902 lacks other things like a play/pause button and a xenon flash also i dislike the c902's screen and slider.

[MikLSP]

You see what I mean then about the viewing size
The K800i picture will be sharper because of the better light to be honest. With that and the tweaked driver consodered I think the C902 image is quite decent for a phone.

Everyone should remember phone images are not meant to be viewed at full pixel size, for that you need a much bigger lens and should be looking at an SLR

[scotsboyuk]

@Mik

The images are comparable, which does bode well for the C902 given the lower light and the fact that it was using proto firmware. For a cameraphone (and let's remember that that is what this is) it isn't too bad, and should hopefully only get better as the firmware is tweaked.

EDIT: Mizzle just linked me to this page. I thought this shot looked rather spiffy.

[Stonos]

scotsboyuk: It's a macro picture. Macro pictures come out much better IMO, so they don't count
Take a look at this macro pic I took with my K800 (no modded driver): http://mike.thedt.net/images/temp/DSC00605.JPG

This post has been edited by Stonos: 2008-05-19 19:59

[scotsboyuk]

I still think it's good.

[number1]

any1 seen this thread over at esato, the nokia 6220 is better than the c902 oh dear
http://www.esato.com/board/viewtopic.php?t...105&start=0

[Norby]

About resolution:

I made today a 3mpx photo and a 2mpx photo of the same thing.

The 2mpx photo was bigger (size) than the 3mpx one.


I use number1's special-edition camdriver.

This post has been edited by Norby: 2008-05-21 16:32

[number1]

I use number1's special-edition camdriver.

yea thats why i changed the file sizes and compression settings.

[epdm]

thanks for the sample pics, at least i know now what the c902 camera is capable of.



No it's not it terms of quality the pics are awful, exposure and colours arent' bad, for a 5megapixel cam the pics have about 1megapixel of detail the because the detail is smeared out by post-processing, the c902 is almost as bad as the nokia 5megapixels cams. i compaided the pics too my k800, my k800 is the clear winner it terms of eveything.

[snipped the pics]


shows that cam quality has gone backwards rather than forwards with the cybershot range.

I have to concur with No.1 on this.

I too believe that SE Camphones have gone backwards quality wise.
It's no doubt that the megapixel race is ridiculous with these tiny sensors that only function good when there's enough available light.

I too think that about 2MPixel is the max you can have for decent quality pics on these camphones. I exchanged my K750i to a K550i which is a direct replacement with the same functions and same 2MPixel phonecam. The only difference is that the K750 has the following focal data: 4.8mm 1:2,8 while my K550i has 3.8mm 1:3,2

The first no: I think is the focal length or sensor size.
The second is the maximum aperture size. The bigger the last no. the smaller the diafragm/iris.

The K550 has a smaller sensor hence needs more light (that's the reason for the higher F/stop). In these cases the numbers indicate how much more light you need for the same quality. I guess about a half F-stop which is about 50%.

So the K550 1:3,2 needs at least 50% more light than the K750 1:2,8.
This is the reason why this K550 is horrible indoors and under low-light conditions. While still acceptable outdoors when there's plenty of light. Nonetheless the older K750 is still superior outside compared to K550. The amount of megapixels simply doesn't improve matters. In fact it detoriates quality even further due to the fact that the pixels distort each other and create more noise (even on well lit photos).

This is the exact same reason why I bought the K550 and not the K850 (this data is nowhere to be found on the K850 so I presumed the same small sensor and large f-stop as the K550) and why I bought a Nikon D40 (6Mpixel) instead of its 10Mpixel brother D40x (on an unrelated case). In case you wonder why I didn't buy another K750. I gave mine to my mom when her K750i broke down and she wanted the same model. But since then the K750 was end of live and therefore unavailable so bought the K550i for myself and give her my K750i.

The only advantage the K550 has over the is faster UI and faster java-games (oh great, fast games on that awfull keypad. Well done SE :-( )

SE should try to use as large as possible sensors with low F-stops to get better all-round quality. In that respect I think The K750/W810 were the best camphones they had.

To summarize:

5.8mm 1:2,2 would be amazing
4.8mm 1:2,8 is better
3.8mm 1:3,2 is worse
2.8mm 1:4 Even a bloody blind mole sees more

Cheers